Setting Boundaries That Stick with Juliane Taylor Shore and Therapist Uncensored {EP 185}

Narrator: Welcome to Therapist Uncensored, building on decades of professional experience, this podcast tackles neurobiology, modern attachment and more, in an honest way that's helpful in healing humans. Your session begins now with Dr. Anne Kelly and Sue Marriott.

Sue Marriott: Hey everybody, thanks for joining us. We are extremely happy to have Julianne Taylor Shore back on the show. Her first episode that we did quite a while back on boundaries was very popular, and so we're picking up that conversation. But there's a lot of new stuff you're going to like this one as much or more as that first episode. She's a therapist in private practice, and teaches and speaks to people all around the world, translating new understandings of neurobiology into practices that can support brain change. She is also the author of Setting Boundaries That Stick: How Neurobiology Can Help You Rewire Your Brain To Feel Safe, Connected, and Empowered. Before we jump to the episode. Though, couple of quick reminders. We've got a live conference coming up in Austin, Texas that we want to invite everybody to. We also have a virtual book launch with Robyn Gobbel, Best Selling Author. We've got basically a lot of events, and we want you to be part of any of it. So you go to therapistuncensored.com, and then go to the event page. You just hover over events, and there it is, right there. In addition, we found out that Goodreads is giving away 20 copies of our book, which is really fun, in order to get in the queue to get one of those free copies, hopefully, just go to Goodreads giveaway and search Secure Relating and the book will come up. You'll sign in and be eligible for one of those 20 books if you want to, just go ahead and pre-order it so it's in hand when it is released on April 1st. Then securerelatingbook.com is your place to go. All right, let's get right to it. 

Ann Kelley: We were just sitting here talking before we jumped on, and we think it's been, what, five or six years since you were- Yeah, that is amazing. 

Sue: And we just did a replay not too long ago. So people have it fresh in their mind. This is the- everybody remembers the jello wall. Everybody remembers the boundaries. It's gotten such grave reviews, and now we get to get an update on what's been on your mind since then, we get to hear about your book. Let's start actually with that podcast, because things happened from that. And we didn't know this until we went to your book launch. That was the first time we had heard this. Okay, go ahead, 

Juliane: So I did this podcast, and there's this online platform called Academy of Therapy Wisdom who listened to it and were wondering, Hey, would you do a whole boundaries course for therapists to train them? So I made that and then that did well. And I made level two, and that did well. So now, like lots of people know me for the boundary work, and then I guess, like in between those first two courses, I was making, a person from New Harbinger called me and said, I heard you on therapist uncensored. You all had replayed the podcast, and she said, I heard you last week, and I'm really wondering if you would like to write a book. So I now have a book, because you put this work out in the world.

Ann: So excited. You said, Hell yeah, I'd like to write a book. 

Juliane: I said, Yeah, sure. Let me tell you what I would do. And so over the last six years, I've been deep, diving even more into neurobiology around how do minds experience other minds?

Sue: This is our jam. This is such a jam.

Juliane: And so my book has all sorts of new neurobiology in it. My thinking has evolved. You know, the the podcast that we did, my thinking was relatively clear at that moment around how I was thinking about it, and then also, ooh, once I dove even deeper into the neuroscience of the mentalization neural networks, and into thinking about, how does compassion play a role in putting a pause between feeling and doing, and how could the basal ganglia start playing a role in that? I did this deep dive and ended up playing with lots of different ideas around boundaries, so I've really expanded it since the last time I was on the podcast and have new ideas and different ideas. And, yeah, I'm excited to

Ann: share it. We love that you're here to share it, and everybody's now that they've those of you that have just listened or listened a while ago, they're like, What are your new ideas? Let's jump in, right?

Juliane: So I started talking about boundaries, and then I realized, Oh, we're not actually having shared vocabulary. So I broke boundaries down into four categories. There's the external ones, which are the kind you think about when you're talking to somebody else, the ability to say no to a thing or hey, this isn't okay for me. So here's what I'm going to do, to take care of myself. All that is what most people think of when they think of boundaries.

Sue: I think of the hula hoop. 

Juliane: Yeah, yes, totally. And what I was thinking about was, wait, there are other boundaries too. I was just facing some hard realities we have to deal with, and how could boundaries help us. So let me actually slow down for a second. This has everything to do with brain integration. So when your system, on a subconscious level, perceives more safety, then it's okay for your brain to work slower and you can do the nuanced, more integrated brain states, like connection and bonding, or like grief processing, or like these things that really, oh, we need to slow down and have more nuanced and creative ways of getting through something, creative problem solving, that sort of stuff. And when our brains perceive danger, they go less integrated so that you can protect yourself quickly. It's basically like a time assessment, like, how much time do I have to solve this problem? If I have a lot of time, then I can do the slow way, and if I have not much time, I need to do the fast way. So I was thinking about it, and I was thinking, Oh, but there's all sorts of ways boundaries would add protection in the subconscious awareness. So if we added protection, then we could actually support ourselves in having more integrated states more frequently, which was really exciting to me to think about, because I want to support people be able to be empowered to do that for themselves. Which led me to these other categories. I'm like, wait, wait, wait, we're just talking about one category. We should talk about these other categories. 

Sue: So speaking of slowing down, what you just said is so interesting and important, and I know it's going to lead into some of these other things. So can you restate what you just said if you don't mind?

Juliane: Brain integration is following a subconscious, rapid assessment, less than a quarter of a second, assessment of am I okay, or am I not okay? So we're making that fast assessment, and then the brain does the thing to support the assessment. If the assessment is oop not okay, then we're going to guess, I don't have that much time, so we need to pick the fast way, and that's less integrated, and it's awesome protection and leaning into old learnings about how to make sense of the world is awesome. Catching your kid when she fell off the bed. Brilliant. Love it. There's nothing wrong with these states. They're just not so good at being in a complex conversation or coming up with a new creative idea, because they're supposed to lean into what worked before. If the assessment then is, oh, I'm relatively protected, I'm relatively safe, then we'll go more integrated. 

Sue: And you have some ideas about how boundaries can help us slow that down and create more air and space for us to be able to drop into that more creative space?

Juliane: Right! So what I think is like, oh, boundaries are adding protection so that my subconscious mind is actually guessing I'm okay, even inside of a hard conversation, even inside of a moment when my kiddo is losing it, even inside of this really, you know, sticky moment with my partner.

Sue: How does that work? How do you do that?

Juliane: So we need to add protection in these different ways. There are these realities I was kind of facing, and I was thinking, Oh, what if we look at how the brain works and then add protection in each of these different domains. So I ended up coming up with additional boundaries beyond just the external boundary where we set one with somebody else. So reality number one, minds experience the world in different ways. If we want to be connected, we have to be connected through difference. We can't be connected and be same as because that's not reality. Which networks know how to tell what's happening in somebody else's mind? 

Sue: Yeah, how to jump that gap? 

Juliane: Right? Which networks know that your mind and my mind are actually different? So I started really digging in to how these networks work, what information they listen to, how they talk, and created some practical tools. And I call that one a psychological boundary. So now we have two boundaries on board. We've got external boundaries and psychological boundaries and a psychological boundaries internal where I keep my mind protected from your mind, and I protect your mind from mine.

Ann: I love the way you're using the word protection and boundaries together, because then we can start seeing boundaries as something that's really favorable. It's not just a limit. It's like, oh, I'm integrating something here that can make my mind feel safer. To be able to receive your mind, and with you mentioning the psychological boundaries, sometimes it's hard for us to even recognize that our minds are separate, right? We spend so much time thinking about what is in somebody else's mind and then assuming that we're right, right?

Juliane: Exactly, we have very little pause between the guess and the assumption of correctness.

Ann: Isn't that true? Right? Or even to know that we're sitting here thinking about what's in their mind, because we're often activated by our imagined state of their judging us, their judging us, and we don't even think about their mind being separate. And we're acting on that. We're acting on, let's stop us from being judged. So I'm going to start acting different, and so you're bringing up the idea of psychological boundaries is a such a great reminder. I have to remember that my mind is different from yours, and holding that space, just holding that idea of that boundary, can really send a lot of messages to your body that you're safer. 

Juliane: That's right. You're not really subjected to what they think of you. You actually are not which is why I came up with two different ideas about how the psychological boundary could help us out. One is discernment. Oh, let's keep what's not true and not about me out there, and I'll take in what is true and is about me. It has to cross both. And that's similar to what we were talking about before. 

Ann: The jello wall, right?

Juliane: The jello wall, exactly. And then I was thinking, Oh, wait, but how do I protect another person's mind from my mind? What if we add listening with acceptance into that psychological boundary where your feelings and thoughts could be your experience as you become yourself through time. And I don't need to change that for me to be okay. So what was interesting, though, and this is where I get a little different than what I talked to you guys about six years ago. So oh my gosh, this crazy thing happened when I was looking at the research. It turns out that that mentalization network receives information from our heart and bellies, that's where it's listening to and then it's giving information in the form of image. And I realized when I started playing with this with people, is my image was a jello wall, but everybody has their own individual image that knows these two things, discernment and listening with acceptance. And what I found is, not one time, has somebody's image been the same. It's actually individual, and when it comes from that heart and belly knowledge. So if I hold these two concepts and I ask myself inside, ooh, tell me an image. Show me an image that knows these things, what I'm finding is just the right gesture-image for somebody will come up some old thing that's a memory of being cared for well comes up.. Some very specific to them shadows. I had somebody who was like, Oh yeah, mine's a dinosaur bird. So oh, great, there's a dinosaur bird. Can you float the dinosaur bird in between you and your husband in that hard moment, oh my gosh, that's remarkable. I actually feel fine. So when they were trying to use mine, it wasn't working that well. But when they use their own, magic!

Ann: I love that. I'm curious for those though that have not heard about the jello wall, because some of you might have just recently heard it, but not all of us might have understood what you mean. And one of the things is so important is you're talking about the use of imagery, and we talk a lot on the podcast about how important that is, and that for you, you use this image of a jello wall when you want, for instance, to remind yourself of the psychological distance between you and your husband in the middle of something, and that reminds you, oh, wait, we're not the one person. And you used, I don't know if you still do, but the jello wall.

Juliane: Yeah, it turns out that's my organic image. Is a wall of jello with pink sparkles in it. And sometimes people's images change, but mine has not. So mine is still a jello wall, but I realized, Oh, me teaching you my image isn't that helpful, but me finding a process that supports you in discovering yours is very helpful.

Sue: And then say again, for folks who aren't tracking this, what's the job of the jello wall specifically?

Juliane: So it's discernment. I don't take in what's not true or about me. So if it's- here's an example. Let's say my husband and I are going out to dinner, going out to cocktails. It's very exciting. We don't have many date nights. We have a small child at home. This is thrilling. And I walk out, and I'm wearing a lovely dress and heels, and my husband is five, nine, and I'm six feet tall, and he knew that when we got married, by the way, this is not a surprise. And he looks, he looks down, and he goes, could you change your shoes. Now, maybe I'm attached to my outfit. And my answer is, No thanks. I would like to keep wearing my shoes, and maybe my connection to the shoes does not matter at all, and I don't care if I'm wearing flip flops. Sure, no problem. But don't worry, because I've got my jello wall and it discerns, wait, I'm going to make a guess really fast about what that meant to him. I'm too tall, or there's something weird about me, or whatever all that is on the other side of the jello wall. Wait a second. Is this information about me, or is this information about him? And if this is information about me, yeah, I'll let it in. But if this is information about him, then there it is, over there. In this instance, it is absolutely not information about me. That's information about my partner. Now my jello wall is also going to help me with listening with acceptance.    

Juliane: Oh, I have tons of curiosity about whatever's happening emotionally that led to him saying that. But I don't need to change it for us to be okay. I don't need to get him to accept my height suddenly, if I guess, oh, all of a sudden, he doesn't accept my height anymore, which is absolutely not true. But let's just for example, oh, he has a hard time with that. I might be curious about that, but I don't need to make him feel okay for us to be okay in that moment, for me to be okay in that moment, because I'm just witnessing him becoming himself through time. It's benevolent and respectful. I said this for the first time out loud on your podcast. It ended up a major sentence in the book. It is benevolent and respectful to bear witness to someone else's feeling and experience without trying to mess with it. I think of that as actually psychological boundary violation. Oh, I need you to think and feel differently for us to be connected. That's the opposite of acceptance. So my jello wall does those two things. It keeps out what's not mine, lets that be his party over there, and it helps me listen compassionately. 

Sue: Really glad that you spelled it out so that even now as you're listening, that you can begin to see what organically arises as your own images, which is, you know, gets us right back to some of your sub points. So thank you for saying that. And you know, there's so many points that you're saying that, like, you know, we're all still so in process. So what we have two different minds. We're not, you know, closeness doesn't mean we're, you know, that we're just completely connected like this. So this is just so fun. 

Ann: Well, I also wanted to think about in the idea of being with yourself and seeing him separate. Can also give him the space in the room to make that request in the first place. Like you said, he knew the height. He knows you own heels. So there's all sorts of things. So who knows in that one moment, why that would have been relevant for him? Maybe for some reason it was hitting him more that day because he had a horrible day, or maybe he had an idea that he was going to surprise you, who knows what encouraged him to ask that question, but through the idea of having whatever image that you might have that reminds us that we're separate people, it gives you the space to mentalize him and yourself and so often, instead, we're like, What do you mean? Why would you say that? You know, we're in that really fast, reactive brain, right? And instead, it's like, whoa. I am curious. What makes you ask that question? Like, where are you in this process that tonight of all night said that seems important to you, and then it would make a huge difference about how he is about how you feel about it. So it's giving room for both.

Juliane: Exactly. It really welcomes his experience. And so if my response was, how dare you say that? Or what makes you ask that right now? Ooh, that's a sign I didn't have discernment, that pierced my heart. Wait. I didn't keep out what wasn't mine.

Sue: It also gives him permission to ask, because he can trust you, but if you don't want to take your damn shoes off, you're not going to take your shoes off exactly, so that he can continue to be himself, and he's not going to destroy you with this question, or, you know, just all the things where he'll you'll do it, but you'll be resentful, or, right, all the craziness that happens with all that right?

Juliane: And what if I'm caretaking him instead? What if I'm in a space where you go, Oh, no, what's wrong? Instead of being curious, now I'm not listening with acceptance. I lost that part of the psychological boundary. So what the hope is here is to say I can maintain that curiosity. I can go, Oh, I love these shoes, sweetie. I planned this outfit all week. I really don't want to take them off. I'm sorry. Is something happening?

Ann: I love that, because then he could come back. He's heard the importance of it for you. You've established- you didn't jump, right. If we don't take the space, we jump too fast, and then that gives me who is now playing your husband for the moment. Instead, I could be telling you about sort of- I feel a little bit more off or more insecure, or I could be saying, You know what, I need you to trust me on this one.

Sue: That's not the look you're going for. That's what Ann says to me sometimes!

Ann: I love that you just went there! But that's not the look you're going for. You need to trust me. Actually, what I was thinking is that he actually has a really wonderful surprise that's gonna involve a lot of walking. 

Juliane: That's what I was thinking, too! 

Ann: And here's Sue's going, trust me, take the shoes off, and that look was not actually- See how we could all do those projections about noting insecurity or noting the fast brain. What we talk a lot about on our podcast is the fast brain does a lot of habitual thinking and assumptions that we don't recognize, right? So it's going to come out in our projections. So slowing that down, and the idea of having a boundary, being able to slow our entire system down to now, I can see, and instead of that ending up in a fight where you got to wear your shoes, and he's like, Fine, internally, he's like, okay, fine, wear your shoes. You're just not going to get- you know, you can imagine all the different directions that could go, right?

Juliane: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I was thinking, okay, psychological protection, that's going to be really, really important to help the brain experience more safety moment to moment, which is going to increase the time you're actually run by your more slow brain. Great. Okay. What else might get in the way? And so I was thinking about it. And I was thinking about, well, what about a boundary between me and me? What about when I do behavior that feels out of my integrity. 

Sue: This is one of my favorite parts of your book. By the way, go ahead!

Juliane: Thank you! So I call it the containing boundary. This is all about putting a pause between what we feel and what we do. How do we actually do that? And I'm researching behavior change and talking, really looking into Kristin Neff's work, and she has some great stuff out there about compassion and really diving into the neuroscience of compassion, I'm thinking, oh, what we need is to use compassion to slow that lower brain down, because the GABA flow, which is an inhibitory neurochemical, you don't need to remember the name, just know what makes your brain go we're okay. So that chemical comes in and and calms down that fire in the lower brain and gives you a second, a pause, between that feeling and doing, so that you can double check yourself. So that's part of the containing boundary. The containing boundary practice is like a practice you take little step by little step by little step and put it all together. And then once you've got it all together, you can use it in an instant, to put a pause between what you feel and what you do.    

Juliane: So when I was thinking about this, I was like, Wait a second, we have an issue, though, two issues that are really hard. One is that right now pain and far away pain, my brain will always guess, regardless of the truth, that the pain close to me in time is worse, even if it's not true. So if I have a moment where I might be confronted with here and now pain like I love chocolate, it's awesome. I could eat an entire bag of dove chocolate without even thinking about it in one sitting. Well, the here and now pain would be the grief of saying, No, we're going to have one piece and not 18 pieces, and the far away pain is the stomach ache I'm going to have if I eat all 18 pieces. So if I want to put a pause between what I feel and what I do, I have to say yes to the here and now pain, so that I can say no to the further away pain, and I can act more in that integrity and value system. So one, I wanted to put a really big emotional oomph inside our pause, because you're going to have to say yes to here and now pain a lot, if you have a containing boundary, sometimes I wonder, why do people listen to me? I just tell them that life is full of grief and we're gonna face some pain. 

Sue: Are you kidding? I'm on the edge of my seat. I'm like, Tell us please!

Juliane: So I wanted to put big, big, big emotional oomph. Well, what could put big emotional oomph? Two things. One is, who do you really want to be in this world? How do you actually want to show up? What is the most integritis way for you? So it's being true to yourself, and it's going to build self trust like crazy if you can live out of that. And two, how do I want to show up with others? What is my real relational integrity. So I came up with a practice that would help people come up with a keyword to remind them of that emotional knowing. One word is an integrity word, one word is a relational intention word. And so we put together compassion plus our big emotional oomph to deal with this problem. But wait, there's another problem. I love reality. I face reality so that we can face all these issues and actually just say yes to them and deal with them. So the problem is, is that when I'm out of my integrity, most of the time, my fast brain just ran my show, but compassion comes from the left prefrontal cortex. That's part of your slow brain. Oh, no, we need to find a way to make compassion faster.    

Juliane: So then I was thinking, Wait, there's a part of your brain called the basal ganglia, which is way down in the fast brain, and it knows the emotional meaning of movement. So right now, if I gave everybody a thumbs up, there, I did it. You don't have to think, wait, what does that gesture mean? You know what that gesture means? I do this. I have a little heart hands. Heart hands. You'd know what that means. You don't have to worry about that. That's the basal ganglia at work. I thought, what if you found your own personal version of a compassion gesture? Then you could lock compassion into your low brain and access it faster so the containing boundary is all about building a practice where you lock a compassion gesture with your two key words. And so you meet at speed with big emotional oomph, a moment where you pause between what you feel and what you do so you can act more in your integrity.

Sue: You know what comes to my mind? The natural visual is my thumb touching my ring finger. That there's, there's something about just, it's part of the pause. I guess it's like, there's something that is very immediate about it. I love what you're saying though, about needing to outsmart your brain because of how fast it is, that if you're in distress, then we know what part is lit up, and what you're saying is, but we need this other part lit up to cool off. So you've come up with these techniques. So you said that it's a it's a physical action.

Juliane: Action that, to you, means compassion. It means that loving kindness. It means, of course, it's this hard to be human.

Sue: So do you do a thumbs up?

Juliane: I actually- mine. Is a hand on heart, and I have practiced mine so much that actually what happens now is I can feel the hand on the heart without me putting my hand there. A friend of mine who was playing with this did this gesture where she rubbed her fingers and thumb together. That's just what naturally came up for her, and she told me, she said, The craziest thing happened today. I was with my husband in the car. He was doing something that I was feeling really agitated about, and I looked down, and my hand was already doing that, and I remembered my keywords, and the way I answered him was so gentle and so different, and we actually had a really deep conversation when normally we would have had a screaming match.

Sue: That's wonderful. And what are some examples of keywords? 

Juliane: So mine, my integrity word is courage. So to me, how do I want to show up in this world? When I think about it. I think about boldness and clarity, but I also think about how gentle I want to be, and how everything I'm doing I'm trying to live into these principles. And it for me, it takes an enormous amount of courage to say yes to grief. And I know for me that's going to be important to saying yes to grief, to live into these principles, to live in my integrity, I have to say yes to a lot of missing out. And so I say yes to many grief a lot. So for me, courage is a perfect word for other people. I've heard beauty, I've heard faith. I've heard lamppost was actually one that came up, and it was about the light in the darkness, but that was the thing that came up for her, and so lamppost was her word. It doesn't have to be like so high and mighty. It's your word. What reminds you about who you want to be. So mine is courage, and then my other keyword is kindness, and that has to do with my relational integrity. So relational integrity keyword is, how do I want to show up in relationship? So for me, in moment, this just happened yesterday.    

Juliane: We are going through big shifts in my family, and it's going to require a move, and my daughter's had a really hard time with this news. She loves our house, she loves our neighborhood. She has really good friends in our neighborhood, and for the benefit of our family in the long run, my husband and I, we know this is the right thing. So there was a moment where she was saying, you don't control my body. You cannot make me move. I will not do it. In the distress, right? And some of me wants to go, are you kidding me right now? Do you know what we're going through? This is for you. We're doing- everything in me wants to do that right? Show you my fast brain. My fast brain is going to show you how bright I am about this decision. And even inside that moment, I could feel the weight of my hand on my heart, and the words came back to me right away. The only reason it happens that fast is because I have committed to skill and practice. I learned the new skill, and I practice, practice, practice, practice. That's what changes the brain. That's what makes a neural network stick. But it came up instantly without me thinking about it, that heavier weight in a kind way. It doesn't feel hard, if it just feels good on my heart area and immediately courage and kindness, and then I could remind what is kindest in this moment, and I remember my jello wall. There it is. I don't need to change how she's feeling. So then I can just say, of course, you don't want to leave. This is so hard. And we had a really great conversation. Our whole family did. By the end of it, she got to see some of the benefits of the she's already in, 'Can we move tomorrow yet?' So we're doing great with it, right? But how does that transformation happen?

Ann: No, I see she- she got to be in her own grief with you by the end, right? When we talk about the mini griefs, if you would have been in the inactive, you would have sent her all the way into her more activated, or like in our continuum of moving red and angry and away from the more secure self, you got to slow it down and keep it where she could be in her own mini grief. And then you could be here with her, which, of course, then helps anyone move into a more integrated state. Yeah.. 

Juliane: Yeah, exactly. And then she can have her grief move through. So now we have three boundaries, one external, that's the between me and another person, and then these two internal ones, psychological and containing, where I can support me in showing up well with others I can accept their mind is different, and I can live into my integrity so I build my self-trust, so notice boundaries are actually self-worth in action. It's like, Hey, I'm treating myself like a person who's valuable and worthy of protection and worthy of doing hard things for it.

Sue: Worth and action is just again. It's one of those like self worth in action. That's exactly, exactly- that this isn't like a you really should do this in order to be able to have a healthy relationship. You know that it's, it goes back to that bottom up, and it's so individualized and it's so personal, and it's so intimate from that standpoint, you know, even just getting the pause in because our kindness and our compassion and all those things are right there. It's like you're helping. You're assisting and getting that back on board. So it's lovely. Okay, so what's number four?

Juliane: Four is physical boundaries, which are a crossover. They are both internal and external. So the physical boundary work is all about one, how well do you know yourself about what kind of touch you like, what kind of touch you don't like? What would it be like to say that out loud to someone in your life? So a lot of it is on the internal side. Let's get to know ourselves a little bit. And there are lots of practices in the book that help you, like walk through and make some discoveries about you.

Sue: The book, by the way, Setting Boundaries That Stick. 

Juliane: Oh, yay! I always forget to name it. 

Sue: We need to keep saying it. Okay, go ahead!!

Juliane: Yeah, yeah. So we want that internal relationship to be kind and present and growing in awareness, and it's going to change. That's what's so crazy, right? Like, here we are going through life, and what you liked yesterday may not be what you like today. So can you really be fluid with the context? Because physical contact and what you like in terms of sensation and touch has so much to do with the context of where you are in that moment. And then the other part of it is that external boundary, which can you articulate to someone else what is not okay for you physically. And then the book does touch a little bit on boundary repair for those who have had that really horrible experience where somebody has violated your boundary, which, of course, is never your fault. That's not something that you can totally control. So we're also facing the grief of that and working with how do you work with your body when you've been through something like that, to gently come back to yourself.

Sue: To gently come back to yourself. Say more about that?

Juliane: Yeah, well, one of the things that's really, really hard, and I'll speak to it from a personal space, when you've been through physical boundary violation of some kind. 

Sue: And is there anybody who hasn't, right? I mean, I really don't mean that to be sarcastic.

Juliane: No, I think that we all have in some way, no matter the gender, and some of us have been through stuff that feels really scary, and one of the things that happens is, in order to kind of keep going with our life, sometimes we have to compartmentalize or push away those experiences, and that makes so much sense. There's nothing wrong about doing that. It's how you make it through. And sometimes parts of me feel left behind. Sometimes it feels like I don't know myself anymore, or I'm thinking just about different experiences I've had, personally, in my own system of feeling like I had experiences where kind of floating out of my body was the safest way to make it through a thing. And I'm really glad that happened, because it helped me survive it. And also it's almost feels like calling the spirit back into myself. How do I support the lowest part of my brain, the brainstem, the medulla oblongata, is the fancy word for that part of the brain. How do I support and talk to that part of the brain, about now we have more protection than we did in that moment. It's okay to come back. 

Sue: I couldn't help but also think about, of course, the association with when we have to store things and not think of them sort of this active repression that we don't notice, because we need to not notice that, and the corollaries to health outcomes. So some of what you're describing is, in other words, just the strain in the stress in the body that that causes in these subtle but really painful ways. And we, I was thinking about Pennebaker, and you know, this journaling, you know, just the different ways that people have are getting now at this bottom up healing. And that part of what bottom up healing is, I think. Like, is really getting to those spaces that have been needed to be pushed out, which is exactly what you're saying. That's why I wanted you to go back to it. It's like re-inhabiting and integrating, and just, I can feel even like the thing of needing to hold something down, even if it's something really gentle light. But I'm having to some part of my mind has to, like, avoid or step away, and being able to get that back in my body, and the safety that comes right away, the stress coming down,

Juliane: And it helps you live more in the moment, in the here and now. Because a lot of times, those old memories, those old spaces that we have to push away, they're holding expectation of attack. So my muscles are actually kind of constantly holding a need to add extra protection. So once we come back a little bit more into that here and now, and come back to our bodies, it can help ease stress, because there's less expectation of right now, something's really dangerous.

Ann: Makes me think too, as we talk about the physical boundaries, that by really thinking about your own physical boundaries, and you mentioned the touches, I think this is so important in almost any relationship, especially couples or throuples or you just to really be able to know that you get to voice- first we sometimes, with our boundaries, have to stop and go, What is the touch I like? Sometimes we never even think about that. We just are engaging. And then we're so engaged with the other person's desires or the other person's assumptions that it's really hard to remember, what touch do I like? What touch do I not? And the freedom to even have that question is so important in exactly what we're talking about, in letting the implicit part of our memory that may have been touched in ways that felt bad and we're not even aware of it, and if you don't let yourself think about that, it's easy to engage with somebody on many levels, is the safe person in your life, because there are many touches you can get that feel like crossing boundaries for because of your history that anybody else watching it would say that's not a crossing boundaries. You received that touch you liked that, you know, and so by being aware of your own I like or I don't like this touch, you're giving yourself that room to separate and wonder about it, and then by doing that, you're more engaged with a person.    

Ann: And so often people can push that reactivity away from them, and then they're being touched, but then they're pairing really negative associations to that touch, therefore negative associations to that person and not speaking and not speaking about it. And then it can shut down the engagement, because now your body's shut down, but you're allowing it to be touched in a way that you have a really implicit negative response to, but you think, Oh, I couldn't say this is bad. If I said this was bad, that doesn't make any sense. And then, of course, getting back to the idea that you were bringing up about the external and psychological boundaries. If you think about the psychological boundaries, oh, if I say this, it's going to hurt their feelings. So now we don't have a distinguished feeling between the touch that I'm receiving, and that person's assumptions about that. So I shut down my entire self and allow the touch to happen, which is really promoting a negative engagement. And so like being able to think about what physical touch do I like, and being able to express it is inviting that person to hear it, or saying, you know, really, I find this a lot in couples. Sometimes people like to be patted, and sometimes people find that really aversive. But if you really like to get patted, you tend to Pat,

Juliane: And your partner may really like still touch. 

Ann: Yes, exactly. And if you never have that conversation, then every time I get patted, I'm actually by the end of it, through powers of association, like I'm getting more and more errghhhh, you know, and then your partner's, like, but patting so sweet, right? So I guess I'm just sort of getting into a where, you know, an example that can combine all these boundaries that we're speaking about and how important they are to integrate it. And by going, you know, what I really for. So whatever reason, the patting just is something that sends my body into activation, and I don't even have to know why, I get to communicate about it, but I know you love patting. Aren't we different on this? 

Juliane: Yeah, exactly you're naming why I think boundaries bring us closer together, not further apart, if I don't set the boundary, and the patting happens and the patting happens and the patting happens, eventually I'm gonna not want to be close enough to you that you are going to pat my body, and I build resentment, and all of a sudden there's like rage bubbles coming up in my throat every time you touch me that way, because I never said out loud, when in fact, what I could do, and that's that external boundary is. I could prepare myself to do the thing if I need that great so that I can say out loud, I love our touch so much. There is a touch that super annoys me. May I tell you about it?

Ann: And then, if I'm in my own boundary work, I want to feel the alarm of that. Oh my gosh, I'm doing something you don't like. So I have to feel the grief of that and the nervousness it makes on my body and as finding more of our secured center, finding curiosity. Yes, I want to hear more tell you know, but we have to really work into a place of curiosity, because we have to recognize our own alarm centers.

Juliane: That's right. Notice that I don't have to save you from the alarms feeling. I don't want to save you from it, because it's actually going to be the thing that gives us the umph to change this. And so that way, you know, even in future, when you accidentally pat me, because it's the kind of touch you like, it won't be a thing. I can put my hand on that Pat, right? I can be like, Oh, sweetie, remember. And then you go, Oh, yeah, yeah. And it's not a thing, and we move on with our night.

Sue: Then every time that you get touched in the way that you like, and the pat gets shifted, then the you know, now we're falling in love all over again, and all the great things are happening, and because they have the information that they needed. What are some of the other big pieces from the book that you want to be sure and have people understand and hear?

Juliane: Well, you can use all of these boundaries on the inside as well, between you and your parts. You can use the external boundary map to create a plan to shift a negative behavior pattern in yourself. All this interweaves together to help us really land where the book ends, which is, how do you live into clearest kind? How do you live into boundaries equal connection. So in addition to these four boundaries really spelled out in great detail, there's a lot of different examples of different ways to use the practices. So that the book scaffolded, and I wanted to make it- can I tell you what was so hard about it actually?

Ann: We'd love it. We'd love to connect with you!

Sue: Go ahead!

Juliane: One of the hardest things about this for me was when I've been having these conversations with people, when I've been leading workshops on boundaries, it's all co-created conversations, and it's all incredibly individual, and we're discovering together what boundary work is going to work for you, and to translate that into written practices, it was so hard. I had to do a lot of grieving internally to say yes to it, and I say all of this to just name. I wrote the book to be a conversation with everyone who reads it, and I wrote these practices in such a way that my hope is that you don't treat it like some list of things to do, but that you engage with it inside of a conversation internally between you and you, and you use these practices in a way that's going to support your growth. Somebody asked me just this weekend. She says, "Do you think people change? Oh, wait, you're a therapist, so I guess you think that." Immediately, what came out of my mouth was, oh, the question is not whether or not people change. There's no getting away from people changing. We're actually emergent processes flowing through time. Change is the thing that's happening. My question is, what kind of hand do you want in that change? What kind of influence do you want over the change that is already happening? Not whether or not you can change. Everybody's changing all the time. So my hope in bringing this book out into the world is that this will open up conversations between you and you in a way that helps you support influencing that change in a way that's really helpful for your life. 

Sue: Tell us a little bit more about the book and how to find it and how to find you. And before you do that, I want to tell you that it was extremely easy to read in the sense of compelling and clear and enjoyable. So if you're listening, you know, I want to personally recommend that you stop what you're doing, go to whatever. Go to an independent bookstore, hopefully, or go online bookshop, actually bookshop is a group of independent bookstores, but it needs to be on your library. There's- I can't imagine a human being that couldn't do a little bit of boundary work. No matter where you are in therapy, no matter how many PhDs you have, or neuroscientist that you may be, this is just one of those things. This is it's just really incredible. It's really beautiful. 

Juliane: Oh, thank you so much. I am taking that in too. It's nerve wracking, right? You- you all are doing the same thing. It's nervous to put a book out in the world and it just thank you. 

Sue: It's excruciating. It's excruciating. Another thing I want to tell you, I noticed at the book launch you were so graceful and generous. You were being able to take your time so your boundary work is- like the audience, I think could feel it like there was a health in you managing what you were saying. You leading in the pace that you wanted to lead. You know what I mean? That led us into this kind of synchronized connection with you. I certainly know for myself, anyway, that I get wa- you know, I start talking faster, so we have so much learning to do and so much to grow, so far to go, but I just really had a lot of respect for you. 

Juliane: Oh, I promise that feeling is mutual. I love you all so much. Your podcast is amazing. I can't wait to get my hands on your book too.

Sue: Yeah, us too. We're hoping people will get it. So it is a good time, by the way. But do both books. If you're gonna go and you're gonna get setting Boundaries That Stick, which we recommend, go ahead and also type in Secure Relating. Just get them both. They can they can pair together.

Juliane: They actually go really well together. 

Sue: They really do. 

Juliane: Absolutely. So the book is Setting Boundaries That Stick: How Neurobiology Can Help You Rewire Your Brain To Feel Safe, Connected,  and Empowered. And you can find me at my website, which is julianetaylorshore.com and I run teeny tiny group workshops. They're actually limited to eight people on this, so for people who want to take deep dives into the work and and have support as you do your personal work with boundaries. I have that. And, yeah, just feel free to reach out and connect if you want to. And, yeah, you can get the book everywhere, so book people, or bookshop.org, or Powell's wherever you are,

Sue: Or Amazon, or Barnes and Noble.

Juliane: It's all the things. It's, it's on all the stuff and it there's an audio version, if that's your preference.

Sue: Did you read for it?

Juliane: I didn't, but that is lovely. And she did a great job! 

Ann: Wow, that's so exciting, and we're so thrilled to be any part of that journey with you. What a fun process that we are all on right now.

Juliane: Yeah, well, I thank you all for inviting me on the first time and helping me lay the seeds for this to become a thing.

Ann: Well, you've impacted so many people, so many listeners have responded. That's why you mentioned a replay, right? Because we replayed things that really touch our listeners. So this one, I imagine a deep and far listen for many, many people. And by the way, everything that you've just mentioned will be in our show notes. For those of you that are wanting to look and find more specifics and are driving and can't write any of these things down, you'll find them in our show notes. All right, you guys, thank you so much for joining us, and we'll see you around the bin. 

Narrator: There have been therapist uncensored is Ann Kelly and Sue Marriott. This podcast is edited by Jack Anderson.